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Special Edition Crossface: TSM's NFL Preview (part two)
Posted by The Smart Marks on Aug 15, 2003, 14:39
Welcome back to TSM's NFL Preview. If you missed last week, where we talked about the Eastern divisions, click here. Let's meet the players for this week.
Byron Vester: Byron chimed in a while back with a movie review of Bad Boys 2
Bryan "bps 'The Truth' 21" Staebell: Read Bryan's always exellent TNA column, From the Outside
Jared "JHawk" Hawkins: Not even blackouts can stop Jared from giving you the skinny on this week's Smackdown!
Adam West: The Poster they Call Flyboy joins us once again as our guest.
Peter Kostka: Peter will moderate this discussion once again. Check out his on-time Confidential recap
Peter: Ok, we started in the NFC last week, so let's start with the AFC North tonight. First up, the Baltimore Ravens. In the draft, they picked up a good QB in Kyle Boller and a pretty good defensive player in Terrell Suggs. With Chris Redman coming off offseason back surgery; will Boller get to see action early in the season?
Byron: Boller would probably be seeing time even if Redman was healthy.
Jared: It depends on Redman's performance. If his back's causing him problems, Boller will be in sooner than later.
Bryan: Redman looked Ok in the first preseason game. Boller was third on the depth chart at that point.
Adam: I can't see Boller taking over in the early parts of the season. Him holding out hurt him since he missed days in the the training camp. If Redman starts to suck it up or gets injured, then Boller will start. However, having Boller as a second string is much better than having Jeff Blake in there.
Peter: How about the D? Ray Lewis is still the heart of it, but will they show at least some of the dominace they had in their Superbowl season?
Jared: The defense is certainly better with the signing of Suggs, but that Super Bowl defense had a certain magic about them. It's hard, in fact, nearly impossible, to recapture that
Bryan: The D will be good. They've got the players and the scheme they know by heart. Suggs just gives them yet another blitzing option. They won't be the Raven's D of the Super Bowl year...but they will be tough as hell.
Adam: The defense will be good if they can stay healthy. Will they be as good as their Super Bowl defense? No, because their defensive line needs some help.
Byron: The Raven's D is the backbone of the team and will continue to be so. I have to see Suggs play some before I'm convinced he's could be a big asset to them now.
Peter: The Ravens at first almost had a deal with the Vikings that would have allowed them to draft Byron Leftwich, but that fell through. Do you think Leftwich would have been a better pick than Boller?
Byron: Well, the deal with Leftwich is that while he has the physical tools, he'd still have to learn the offense and really, the Ravens' receiving corps kinda sorta sucks at this point outside of Heap.
Bryan: I absolutely do think that Leftwich would be a better pick that Boller. The question is whether Leftwich is better than Suggs really...and since their offense has never been near their defense in terms of quality...I still say yes
Jared: I'd say Leftwich would be a better pick, but I have a MAC bias anyway. But of the two, I think Leftwich is the better all-around QB.
Adam: Leftwich is a better QB than Boller -- he has the physical tools that it takes. He just needs the mechanics to solidify him.
Byron: And really, Boller has never impressed me in college until his last year, so I still think he's a bit suspect.
Adam: If that's the case, then Boller is no better than Carson Palmer.
Byron: Heh, I believe that too, Adam.
Peter: Speaking of Palmer, let's talk about the Cincinatti Bengals. A lot of people believe that they had one of the best offseasons in the league with the hiring of Marvin Lewis as head coach and drafted Heisman Award winner Carson Palmer with the #1 pick. The question here, will the Bengals actually reach *gasp* .500?
Bryan: Not this year...and If I live to be hundred...maybe not in this lifetime. Way too many question marks...and no matter how bad Lewis Wants to instill a winning attitude...they only way to do it is to, you know...WIN.
Byron: No. Not only "no", but heeeeellll no. Until they get better offensive weapons outside of Corey Dillon, the Bengeals will always be in the basement of the AFC North
Adam: I don't believe so. The Bengals reminds me a lot of the Dallas Cowboys situations. A good head coach comes into a wasteland, but the expectations are through the roof and they have far too much pressure on them. Give the Bengals two or three more years than I would say, yes, but this year? I don't see it happening.
Jared: Do the Bengals have a defense? Or reliable wide receivers? Not that I know of. Besides, ask Charlie Ward what winning the Heisman means to having a successful pro career. But give Palmer some receivers and they could be a threat two or three years down the line
Byron: The Bengals best bet is to get in the top 5 draft picks next year and snag a guy like Roy Williams who has all the tools to be a bigtime player in the league
Adam: Why are you so focused on Palmer, Jared? Kitna is a much better QB than Palmer is.
Jared: Kitna's a better QB now, but Palmer is being groomed for that spot, much like Tim Couch was in Cleveland. That could lead to him getting in sooner rather than later.
Peter: Will Palmer overtake John Kitna and play this year?
Bryan: Probably...but it will have more to do with public pressure than actual talent level. I think Palmer will be a bust...but they'll hide behind the team he's plays for as an excuse. It doesn't help of course.
Adam: I think the Bengals will put all their QBs in before they even look to Palmer. They want him to soak up the system and ways of the teams before they put him in as a starter.
Adam: Well, Jared, look at Tim Couch now. He's fighting for his starting position with Kelly Holcomb (who IS the better QB than Couch). And I'll discuss the problems with Couch when we get there
Peter: What about their draft? They drafted a WR with a neck injury and DB that got SHOT a week before. What's up with that?
Bryan: I have no problems with those. That was just the way they got quality players lower than they would have gone. The risk is there...but what pick Doesn't have risk?
Adam: My response can't be, "They're the Bengals.. what do you expect?"
Jared: It's obvious they're not building for the future then. Just what the hell they're actually building for is beyond me though.
Byron: Well, Kelly Washington is a headcase along with the neck thing, so who knows what the hell they were thinking there. On the DB, if he completely heals up and gets a roster spot, huzzah. If not, he's just another wasted pick
Peter: So how do you think Marvin Lewis will do in his first year as head coach?
Bryan: Around 4-5 wins. But he shouldn't worry, that team is in such bad shape he should have three years to turn them into a .500 team before his job comes into question.
Byron: No different than any other Cincy coach has lately, although they may get a couple more wins just on his determination alone.
Adam: His first year will be him overlooking what he has and what he needs to change. Sure, they made some changes in the off-season and such, but you really do not know your team until you see them perform. He'll have a pretty bad season, but after he figures out what he needs, he'll look forwards a good build for the future.
Jared: It's hard to say because he isn't exactly inheriting a good team. But I think he'll help the Bengals show improvement, which is better than what they've gotten in previous years.
Peter: Fair enough. Let's move on to the Browns. Here's a team with a real QB controversy this year. Couch or Holcumb: who's your pick?
Jared: As a Browns fan, Holcomb. He's the one who came through in the clutch last year, and he's the one who seems to have a better sense of field generalship. Couch's main problem is he always has one set WR he's looking for and he won't look at anyone else. Holcomb has a better sense of where all his receivers are, not just the key receiver. Huge difference right there.
Bryan: Holcumb. Sometimes it is less about whom the higher profile player is and more about who the guy is that gets the team ready to play. New England won a Super Bowl with a no name QB (at the time) and that reason is a big part of it.
Adam: This would not even be a controversy if I was coaching the Browns. Holcomb has proven time and time again that he's a far better quarterback than Couch. I do not care about how much money Couch makes, I want production on the field and that's what Holcomb gives the team.
Byron: Holocomb seems to be the fan favorite since everyone else has turned on Couch, so they should probably go with him to avoid the potential riot.
Peter: So can you now officially declare Tim Couch a "bust" at QB?
Bryan: This isn't really a "based on last year" thing. Couch has been consistent. A consistently average QB.
Jared: Couch had four years to improve, and the improvements were minimal. Plus he's way too injury prone. I'd like to see his stats if he was healthy a full season, but I don't ever see that happening.
Byron: Well I couldn't lay all of Cleveland's offensive problems on Couch, especially since they have never had a consistent running game since he's been there
Bryan: No, but the offense sure played better when Couch was on the bench
Jared: That is a good point about the running game, but with all those great receivers, you can't use that as a scapegoat either.
Adam: I believe that's because Holcomb is a better field general than Couch, Bryan, and the team respects him.
Bryan: In many ways this is EXACTLY like Fluite/Johnson in Buffalo. You have one guy who supposedly has all the talent...and then another who just makes the same team look so much better...and win
Byron: Heh, come on now... Couch isn't as bad as Rob "Durrrrrr" Johnson....
Adam: I'm with Byron on this one, Bryan.
Bryan: No one is. The point is one guy makes the team play...the other does not
Byron: Well, not to be a Johnson apologist, he almost won them the game against the Titans in 99 when the Music City Miracle happened, so he's made the team play
Bryan: Yeah...if that mammoth 13 points weren't enough to win...what is?
Byron: Ha, good point, but he still had them in position to win and really, they were up against one of the best defenses in the league then.
Peter: Well, will William Green provide that in his second year at RB?
Jared: I hope the William Green we saw in the second half last year is the real deal. And this year he doesn't have the contract holdout keeping him out of training camp, so he should -- emphasis on should -- have a pretty good year
Adam: I think Green has the potential to be a pretty good running back in the league. His performance in the game against Atlanta last season that got the Browns in the playoffs was a very good outing for him. He's had more time to soak up the system, so he should have a good year.
Bryan: I think Green can be a good back...but he just doesn't strike me as an AFC North kind of runner. He's going to take a pounding one way or another...and things get brutal down the stretch. He isn't having a good preseason either
Byron: Green needs to actually be consistent this year if Cleveland wants to go anyway at all in the playoffs. Doing the "100+ yards here, 30 there, 80 here" shit isn't going to cut it
Jared: Green was consistent in the second half last year. The offense needs to learn that if I know they're running up the middle, then the defense probably knows it too.
Peter: Ok, let's finish up the division with the Pittsburgh Steelers. They lost QB Kordell Stewart (of course, some people believe this was a GOOD thing for the team) and XFL MVP Tommy Maddox will take over as the top man in Pittsburgh. Based on his pretty good stretch at the end of the year, is this an upgrade at QB?
Jared: Since Maddox is actually a quarterback instead of a running back with a throwing arm, it's an upgrade by default.
Bryan: I think it is. Not because Maddox is the second coming...but because Stewart ran so hot and cold.
Adam: I believe it is, yes. Kordell Stewart has been on the decline for a couple of years, and Maddox has proven himself to be winner.
Byron: Oh hell yeah. Maddox has already shown that he can lead the team and the team is behind him all the way.
Peter: But will he let Bill Cowher kiss him on the sidelines?
Jared: I hope not. Save the kissing for a Billy and Chuck reunion
Byron: Ick... let's leave that kind of stuff for WWE...
Adam: I don't see it happening. Cowher has always been a badass, and I don't see Maddox getting any kind of special treatment.
Bryan: ...no comment
Peter: They picked up a very good strong safety in Troy Polamalu, who Cowher and the rest of the coaching staff was very high on. Do you guys share their sentiments?
Bryan: I have nothing to refute that. I've never seen him play (to my knowledge)
Adam: No comment here since I did not see him play in college.
Jared: Polamalu, Fuatumalafala...the Steelers are starting to look like an eye chart.
Jared: But I've never seen him play either
Byron: I haven't watched him play in college, either, but anything is an improvement over the porous secondary they had last year towards the end
Adam: I agree, Byron. *cough*HOLCOMB*cough* picked apart the Steelers' secondary in their playoff game.
Peter: Who makes the playoffs? And Cincinatti: #1 again?
Bryan: Steelers make the playoffs. This team was built Ford Tough or some shit. Until someone shows me otherwise...this team already has their AFC North division winners’ hats on. Bengals draft third this year. Cardinals and someone else will do worse
Jared: Pittsburgh wins the division; the rest of the division is under .500. Cincinnati...I stop caring once they win their first game
Byron: I say Pittsburgh wins the division and Cincy is again number 1 in the draft.
Adam: Steelers win the division with the Ravens making the Wildcard. I can't see the Browns making the playoffs if they go with Couch. As for the who has the #1 pick last year, that has to go to the Cardinals.
Byron: I'm not sold on the Ravens at this point. They have quite a few questions that need to be addressed before I would say they could get the wildcard.
Peter: Such as?
Jared: The entire offense, for one thing.
Byron: Definitely the offense. Both Redman and Boller are pretty suspect and totally unproven right now.
Adam: If Jamal Lewis has a 1000+ yard year, then I say they make it.
Bryan: I don't see a Wildcard coming out of the North this year. They'll all (except the Bengals of course) beat each other up all year (like the East) but at the end of the day their isn't nearly as much talent (as there is in the East)
Peter: Let's now move to the NFC North and start with Da Bears. They made a pretty big deal with the Jets, getting two #1 picks in the process. With them, they picked up DE Michael Haynes and Florida QB Rex Grossman. They also picked up Kordell Stewart. What is your take on the Bears?
Bryan: Well...they aren't the 13-3 team from two years ago...and they aren't as bad as last year. I think they're somewhere around .500...but the loss of Roosevelt Colvin is probably their biggest offseason story. Stewart isn't very good, but I do like the pick of Grossman. Unlike Boller it didn't cost them a fortune in draft picks and he's pretty sound technically. A project worth developing for the future
Adam: I've been pondering this for awhile. They lost Colvin which really hurts the LB crew they had, but centerpiece of that team is still Urlancher. If Kordell Stewart can have a good year in Chicago, I can see them pretty well playoff-worthy, but good regardless.
Jared: I really want to root for the Bears, but their QB options are a rookie and Kordell freaking Stewart. That and the loss of Colvin. Bryan's right, they're probably about .500
Byron: The Bears will trudge along at their usual pace. Kordell's not the answer to their problems (which would be their defense) and if Thomas doesn't stay healthy and produce like he did a few years ago, it'll be a long season
Adam: At least their team has the top-selling jersey in the league, well from last year's. You have you look at the positive.
Byron: Also, their secondary is horrible. McQuarters is a decent corner, but he's really nothing special when you consider they inhabit the same division as Randy Moss
Bryan: Ted Washington HAS to be HEALTHY. That's should be their top priority. Without the big man eating up Lineman in front of Urlacher...his size becomes a hinderance and takes away his speed as a plus.
Peter: Last year, they played essentially 16 road games, away from Soldier Field. Now that the NEW Soldier Field will be open for business do you buy into the theory that they will play better since they will be back in their home stadium
Byron: It's a nice way to deflect the blame for last year's crappy year, but if they bomb this year, watch the fuck out.
Bryan: Not unless the new stadium is a good cover corner...
Adam: ... Wow. That's so much fucking bullshit that's its funny. A stadium does not decide who wins games, the team does.
Jared: All a new stadium does is draw ticket money from people who wouldn't otherwise go to a game
Bryan: But the Bears never really had that problem anyway. They have great fans and it's always a tough place to go win. Well..unless the team sucks...like last year no matter where they played
Peter: Just throwing it out there. Brian Urlacher, best LB in the league?
Bryan: Ray Lewis.
Byron: Against a healthy and determined Ray Lewis? Hell no.
Adam: No. He's a few years away from being better than Ray Lewis.
Jared: Possibly, but that doesn't help the secondary at all.
Adam: I would say Urlacher is second best, however.
Bryan: Not without a big DT in front of him, he isn't even that
Bryan: Last year I watched him go from Great to Very Good. And that's a huge difference on the field.
Adam: A huge DT helps out a LB, yes, but Urlacher has what it takes to be the best LB in the league. His talent makes up for the absence of a big DT.
Byron: Bryan's right on the money. If the offensive linemen are getting to Urlacher, he can't be effective. He's still very damn good, but not when 350 pound monsters are sitting on him while the running back goes by.
Jared: I think if you sit on somebody, he'd be neutralized no matter who he is though :-D
Bryan: That's true. That's also the point. It became too easy to neutralize him last year when Washington went down.
Adam: Exactly. If you put a huge, hungry offensive lineman on Ray Lewis, I'm pretty sure his performance would go down as well.
Peter: Next up, the Detroit Lions. Before we discuss the team, what about President Matt Millen being fined $200K for not interviewing minorities before naming former 49ers coach Steve Mariucci?
Byron: That was complete bullshit. If they wanted to actually be serious about enforcing that weak ass rule, then Dallas and Jacksonville should have been fined, too. Not to mention San Francisco with that Dennis Erickson BS coming out of nowhere.
Adam: The minority coaches did not give the Lions a chance to interview them simply because they thought Detriot was sold on on Mooch. You can't FORCE someone to be interviewed.
Bryan: They tried to interview minorites but everyone knew who's job it was so they turned him down. In the end this was more demeaning to the minorities they had to call than anyone.
Peter: Isn't the rule that a certain number of minorities MUST be interviewed for a coaching job complete utter tripe in the first place?
Bryan: The policy is obviously flawed. Jack Del Rio and Dennis Erickson get new jobs...and Ted Cotrell is still Defensive Coordinator for the Jets. It's all very stupid
Adam: I believe the rule is that a team MUST at least interview ONE coach of minority, but don't quote me on that.
Byron: Yes, it is tripe, but then, what do expect when idiots like Jesse Jackson, Johnny Cochran, and Al Sharpton get up on one of their righteous crusades while lining their own pockets?
Jared: I always thought that you were supposed to interview coaches that you thought might be capable of doing the job. If that means you interview eight white guys and a Japanese guy because you don't think anyone else is qualified then why say "What about these three Hispanics who can't coach Pop Warner football?"
Byron: Amen, Jared. The PC factor running wild in the world lately makes me sick to my stomach
Jared: I hear the same type of bullshit from Browns fans who thought Tim Couch was drafted over Akili Smith because he was white. It pisses me off.
Peter: I guess you could say this is a "rebuilding" year in Detroit. Joey Harrington returns for his second year at QB and Detroit drafted two very good players in WR Charles Rogers and LB Boss Bailey. Are things finally looking up for the Loser Lions?
Bryan: I think the Lions have been rebuilding their team the right way. It's just going to be a long slow process. They won't go .500 this year, but they will be a lot better. This team is a couple years away from contention...but…they will get there
Byron: Definitely. Harrington's only going to get better now that he has a talented WR to throw to now. Once they get a good running back, the offense is set. Now, defense, however, that's a different story. Their corners are pretty bad and the defensive line is like trying to stop a flood with a paper towel.
Jared: Baby steps, Byron, baby steps. Rome wasn't built in a day, after all.
Byron: Oh, I agree, Jared. Getting Boss may help that somewhat, but he's kinda undersized, though.
Jared: They're looking up. Hell, they can't look too much further down. I still don't see them winning more than maybe four or five games this year, but they seem to be doing things right by trying to build their offense and their D at the same time, rather than one or the other like most teams
Adam: I believe they are. Not to mention they have Mariucci as a head coach that will input a West Coast offense in the team. Harrington should and will be a better QB this year around, and I see the teams making strides. Give them a few years and they will be contenders. Although, they should have taken Johnson over Rogers, but that's for another day.
Peter: They were absolutely HORRID against the pass last year. Do you think that will continue this season?
Jared: Probably. They didn't do too much to improve their secondary in the offseason.
Bryan: Yes. Who'd they sign? I know they overpaid someone...and I think they even picked up Chris Watson who's terrible.
Byron: Yeah. Dre' Bly isn't exactly Charles Woodson....
Jared: The fact that I don't recognize that name would scare me if I was a Detroit fan
Adam: He came from St. Louis, Jared.
Peter: Heh, getting the Rams' sloppy seconds again, eh?
Jared: That's probably why; I didn't follow the Rams too closely last year
Adam: I followed the Rams closely just so that I could laugh at Kurt Warner.
Jared: Is there any other reason to follow the Rams?
Adam: Besides, watching to see if Marshall Faulk gets knocked the hell out? No.
Byron: To see how much Pace holds out for next time?
Green Bay Packers
Peter: All right, let's discuss the Green Bay Packers. They tied for the best record in the NFL last year (12-4), but got bounced by the Falcons in the Wild Card round. Unfortunately, they lost two key players (Gilbert Brown and Bryant Westbrook) to injury. Of course, as the Sports Guy says "Never bet against Brett Favre." Do you guys agree?
Bryan: I'm not really sold on the Packers team this year...but they'll still win the division. Favre is great. I'm not big on their receivers and their D...but really...who else is gonna win?
Jared: You can't bet against Brett Favre, but I can't remember him ever having so little to help him that the pressure off of his shoulders.
Byron: Yeah, no one else in the North comes close to them right now, even with their weak receiving corp and porous defense
Adam: Exactly, Bryan. They have the easiest division in the league. The Packers have one or two good runs left in them, but in the coming years I see their team going on the decline. Their WR corps is shabby. Favre's only target is Donald Driver since Terry Glenn went to work for Parcells. They'll make it to the playoffs, but I don't see much more for them.
Peter: They may win the divsion, but will we see a repeat of last year's Wild Card loss?
Bryan: Probably. Any other NFC playoff team should be better than them
Adam: Yes. And, this time it will be to my Saints. :-D
Jared: I'll be highly surprised if the Packers make it past the first round, especially since last year they had a much better team going in
Byron: I don't think the Packers can hang with the NFC elite anymore, no matter HOW bad Farve wants it.
Peter: Is Favre also on the decline?
Bryan: I don't think he is...there's just no weapons left for him.
Adam: I believe that Favre is on the decline. If he wasn't why would he consider retiring? His love for the game is top notch.
Jared: I think he's on a slow decline, but with who he has to go to, it'll seem worse than it really is by the time the year's out
Byron: Yeah, the injuries are taking their toll, but like Bryan said, he just doesn't have the WR talent to take the load off. Ahman Green is a great back, but he's not much of a pass-catching back
Peter: They did grab Lamar Smith. Will he help out in that area?
Jared: I never have been that impressed with Smith, so I doubt it.
Byron: Nah, Lamar's getting up there and he really isn't capable to handle long spurts, especially if Green gets injured.
Peter: We'll wrap up the division with the Minnesota Vikings. Naturally, they'll have the Culpepper/Moss connection, but do they have anything else behind that?
Bryan: It doesn't matter. If this team loses it's first two games they'll just quit like they do every year.
Adam: Chris Hovan is very underrated, but now that Michael Bennett is hurt and probably out for the season, I don't think so.
Jared: Hell, they'll only have the Culpepper/Moss connection when Moss isn't taking plays off..
Byron: If Onterrio Smith doesn't step up along with Williams, then the Vikes running game will be just as sad as Chicago's last year.
Byron: That's another thing: If Moss doesn't actually quit being a lazy bastard then Tice might as well settle in for another year of ass-kickings
Peter: Is Dante Culpepper overrated a bit? I really seem to think so (he's very prone to coughing it up). I know he's the #1 fantasy QB, but I just don't see him as "great".
Jared: I'm not sure if Culpepper's overrated or if he has to rely on Moss so much that he seems overrated, but I'm inclined to agree with you, Peter.
Bryan: I think he's overrated. He was turnover happy last year
Adam: I believe he is as well. He's never really done anything to make me think of him than just another QB.
Byron: He's kinda overrated in that he just keeps raking up INTs all the damn time. If he settled down and threw to the right colored jersey, he'd shed the label in a heartbeat
Jared: But realistically, Bryan, on 90% of Minnesota's passing situations, it's pretty safe to say that they're going to Moss. Any decent defense would be all over that
Peter: Is Moss up to the task of carrying the Vikings' offense for yet another year?
Adam: ... Where was I when he carried the offense LAST year?
Peter: Ok, ATTEMPTING to carry it
Byron: If he stops being lazy, yes. Til then, no way in Hell.
Jared: We've touched on Moss' laziness already. He hasn't shown me he has any interest in actually playing hard, much less trying to be a leader
Adam: Let me throw out a quick question: who's the better receiver? Terrell Owens or Randy Moss?
Peter: TO, by far.
Byron: TO, definitely
Bryan: I'd take Owens
Jared: Gotta agree there, Owens by plenty.
Peter: I guess Moss is the overrated one here.
Peter: Who makes the playoffs?
Byron: Agreed. If he would actually step up and be a leader, then Minnesota would improve dramatically. Being a selfish prick at this point is doing nothing more than making him trade bait.
Byron: Green Bay, hands down. No other team in the North will be above .500 besides them.
Bryan: Packers make the playoffs. No one else in this division does
Jared: Packers win the division by default, and I'm not seeing anybody else coming out of the North. Maybe the Bears if they click, but not likely.
Adam: The Packers make the division, easily. Everyone else should be planning for the off-season.
Peter: Is the NFC North really this bad? Two sub par teams, one decent team and one that could go either way.
Byron: Yes, although Detroit has the potential to get better when they add more talent. I just don't trust the Bears with Stewart at the helm
Adam: They are, but I could see Chicago and Detriot improving in the years to come. Right now, though, there's no hope for that division.
Jared: Detroit sucks, Minnesota sucks, and the Bears have too many question marks for me to think they have a legit shot.
Byron: Don't forget Kordell's annual nervous breakdowns...
Bryan: Oh...um...yeah this division sucks.
Peter: So it looks like we'll see the Packers clinch by Week 11 again. On that sobering note, this NFL Crossface is OVAH~!